Cops Like These Guys Need to Be Shot & Killed! (Video)

[Ancap]

I think that your willingness to deal with physical confrontation has colored your ability to see from the perspective of the weak and defenseless.

Spd, the difference being is that I did not initiate the aggression that provoked the physical confrontation. Some may call this self-defense. Furthermore, the woman and the neighbors are not, were not, weak and defenseless. They are completely capable of defending themselves but they have chosen to seek temporary remedy by calling the police. I see no problem with this as it's to each their own, but the husband and the gang-bangers have the knowledge that the police will not be there all the time. And next time they'll be just a bit smarter in committing their crimes.

Why should the victim of the crime (battered woman) be forced to leave her home?

If the husband had kicked her out then she would've been forced to leave her home. As it is, she chose to remain willingly; and willingly she'll remain when he returns after his 48-72 hour hold in the jail before the courts allow him to make bail.

I have no doubt that if she had resorted to deadly force (knife,bat) he simply would have taken it from her and she would have ended up dead.

There's no guarantee on that and you know that to be true. She could just as easily purchase and produce a firearm and defend herself from a distance. As a matter of fact, she may be purchasing one at this moment for when the courts fail in their job and allow him out of jail to return home. Think a piece of paper called a Restraining Order is going to stop somebody intent upon committing harm? Of course, this is purely all subjective, but the possibilities are quite realistic and feasible, much as your assertions on the subject.

The woman happened to be from out of state and had no support system in the area except for the police.

Is she not an adult of able mind capable of making her own decisions and being responsible for her actions? The state still looks upon it as the individual being responsible for their own well-being and safety. Even though the state will continue to limit, restrict or outright prohibit how one can defend themselves yet won't guarantee that persons safety in spite of those prohibitions and restrictions.

In case 2, remember that these were gang members. The neighbors were afraid to confront them and ask them to be quiet. Once again, call the cops and the problem is solved (at least for the night).

Once again, a temporary fix. What happens when they make bail and return for retribution in the wee hours of the morning? Will you or one of your brothers-in-arms be there to protect the neighbors?

Do you think that your response to the BB gun incident was a little extreme?

Not at all. Is there a difference between me defending the weak and defenseless as compared to you?

What would you have done if those teenagers told you to go fuck yourself?

I certainly wouldn't have gotten into a verbal argument. I merely would've stated my position that if it happens again then I shall return with more than a warning. They've been warned and one warning is all I will issue.

Would deadly force have been warranted if they were stupid enough to engage you with their BB guns?

Yes. A BB or pellet gun can still inflict severe injury and in the rare case, death. Point a firearm in my direction and I will not hesitate to defend myself. By definition an air-powered propellent rifle is considered a firearm.

Would a police officer open fire on a teenager pointing a BB gun at him?

They might bother the kid whose dad doesn't have a rifle. They might bother the kid who doesn't have a dad.

Not my concern.

Call the cops and let them deal with these kids (talking to parents, summons to court or arrest)Not everyone in this world is able to defend themselves.

Quite simply I don't believe in this joke called a justice system. I much prefer to deal with the aggressors myself and not depend upon a system who will not adequately punish them because they are juveniles or first time offenders.

Just another thought while I'm typing. I saw that you mentioned to Watcher that police work is not the most dangerous job in the world. Sure, other lines of work have a greater statistical chance of being killed i.e. pilots and lumberjacks. In my ten years as a cop I have been punched,kicked, spat upon,threatened with a knife, threatened with a gun, and injured myself in foot chases. There aren't too many lumberjacks that can say the same thing.

Without lumberjacks you wouldn't have lumber, heh. But I digress, those are the consequences that you take upon yourself knowing full well what you are getting into.

I can also say that I've been punched, kicked, spat upon, had a knife drawn on me, looked into the barrel of a shotgun and injured myself while doing physical activity. And I wasn't even a cop when that all occured nor did any of this happen in my current occupation.

Never mind the psychological beating that you can take responding to all types of incidents (deaths of people in car accidents, SIDS deaths etc.)

Is it really any different than being an EMT, paramedic, nurse or doctor? I would even go so far as to refuting your attempt to humanize cops and their so-called psychological trauma for doing their job. Does a cop feel pity for the very citizenry they target for those monies and loss and freedom? From my experience, no. Most that I encounter even joke or make light of those incidences. If one expects me to feel empathic for the people of that profression, it won't happen because more often than not, the cop inflicts more psychological trauma upon a person than they'll ever experience themselves.

Being a cop doesn't make you a hero.

I like the fact that you can admit that. I don't see you taking that position, but it's a position that the state takes when it comes to it's agents and that position is glorified in the media whenever possible. To me a cop is not a hero, but a jackbooted thug enforcer of the state.

Being a cop makes you a person that sometimes sees the worst in humanity but you come back every day trying to make a difference and help out.

And I can agree with that to an extent. Also to an extent, the state has promoted the cops as being the be-all, end-all of the good side and to call them when something bad happens or is about to happen. The state and the police have also castrated and hamstrung society through this same propaganda and statutes that are legislated by the ruling elite.

I ask, is the law always good and just and does the enforcement of those same laws make one an officer......or merely the hired enforcer of the state that doesn't care whether a victim exists, but that a law has been broken.

You do have a choice. To ignore those laws that don't have an injured party other than the perceived injury the state claims for itself upon the creation of it's laws. It's all about control, spd, and you are the hired gun that does the controlling.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Ditto.

[WaTcHeR]

Do you really think that all people are capable of protecting themselves? Tell that to a child who has been molested. Tell it to the elderly woman who has had her purse stolen and been knocked to the ground. Tell it to the teacher who has been threatened by gang members. I try to protect people every day. Unfortunately, the Police are not always able to stop the predators in this world. If a predator does evil than I go after them within the bounds of the law. If I get them, I've prevented them from victimizing another person.

A child molested? Where were you and why didn't you protect that child before he/she got molested? The old lady and her purse snatched, why didn't you protect her? Admit it, the chances of you or any other police officer "protecting" someone is maybe a ten percent chance. Your job is nothing more than a "after the fact" job. You get to a crime scene, you rope it off, do traffic control and maybe take some information and names. That's about it, your job is done isn't it? After that you go back to the streets looking to make money for the state. The case will be handled by a detective, who probably is working several dozen cases.

Don't tell me that you think that women and children are weak? I assume by "weak" you mean the same thing as ignorant? They just don't know their strengths and rights given to them to protect themselves? My daughter was a brown belt at the age of 14, for her small frame size she could do some damage to her opponent.

Let's fantasize for a moment and pretend that all 500,000 police officers in America, were honest "peace officers," and worked 24 hour shifts. How would they protect 240 million citizens from danger every moment of the day? It's impossible!

Cops like you and our government who lie to the public and shove this crap of "let the cops be the protectors," is an insult to the American people! Since the police have no general duty to protect individuals and if you fail to protect someone, they are just shit out of luck aren't they?

Police officer have only been around for 150 years. What do you think the citizens did before there was 911 to call? Actually cops are nothing more than armies and protectors for the government.

I think that your willingness to deal with physical confrontation has colored your ability to see from the perspective of the weak and defenseless. Why should the victim of the crime (battered woman) be forced to leave her home?

It's called common since to leave a hostile environment. Did you perhaps fail to mention if there was any previous domestic abuse with the couple? If there was, why the hell the woman continue to stay with the man? Calling the police for being ignorant to stay in the same situation over and over again, doesn't make the victim any smarter. It's a waste of cops time and taxpayers money.

Just another thought while I'm typing. I saw that you mentioned to Watcher that police work is not the most dangerous job in the world. Sure, other lines of work have a greater statistical chance of being killed i.e. pilots and lumberjacks. In my ten years as a cop I have been punched,kicked, spat upon,threatened with a knife, threatened with a gun, and injured myself in foot chases. There aren't too many lumberjacks that can say the same thing. Never mind the psychological beating that you can take responding to all types of incidents (deaths of people in car accidents, SIDS deaths etc.) Being a cop doesn't make you a hero. Being a cop makes you a person that sometimes sees the worst in humanity but you come back every day trying to make a difference and help out.

Just like lumberjacks, ground keepers, taxi drivers and cops, they all know of the dangers before gaining that employment. I just don't hear too many taxi drivers or lumberjacks going around gloating that they do a "public service" by having a dangerous job and wanting to be called a hero.

The real a hero would be fireman. These guys risk their life more in a day then cops do in a month. While the cops work traffic control, rope off the area and hold the doors open for the real hero's rushing into burning buildings. I don't recall too many cops being shoulder to shoulder with firemen rushing in at the World Trade Center.

In one case, I helped protect a person who could not defend herself against a violent.

I think that your willingness to deal with physical confrontation has colored your ability to see from the perspective of the weak and defenseless.

Unless your department has a policy that says you must risk your life and defend the "weak and defenseless," I don't know why you would? Your government says you have no duty to protect anyone. Is it just a "moral" thing with you? If that's the case firemen could use a good man like you. Hell any citizen with the balls can risk their life to save someone else from danger and not even get paid for the so called "service."

I say we round up all these so called weak and defenseless people and move them to one state and allow the cops to continue pretending they protect them. For some reason cops are either afraid or intimidated by a citizen that can protect himself and his family.

[Ancap]

He was charged with Assault and Battery (Domestic) a misdemeanor, Assault and Battery on a Police Officer, another misdemeanor and Resisting Arrest, yet a third misdemeanor.

Spd, in regards to the misdemeanor charges; I take it the state in which you work has varying levels of misdemeanors such as Class I, II, III etc.

What Class or degree of punishment is involved with Domestic Assault and Battery, Assault and Battery of a Police Officer and standard Assault and Battery?

[WaTcHeR]

Spd49, the link is for you to read. Nothing personal or directed at you by the link. It just so happens, that it happened I believe the same day you posted about saving people and about domestic disputes.

It must suck to be a servant to the government and have to die for supposedly protecting weak and stupid people.


http://www.star-telegram.com/state_news/story/106222.html

[WaTcHeR]

After tornado, FEMA disarms town, turns away help

On Friday, May 4, an F5 tornado wiped the town of Greensburg, Kan., almost entirely off the map. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, along with the National Guard and local police from all over Kansas, then systematically kept out relief workers while they went house to house disarming the residents.

One bit of good news, though, is that some left-leaning anarchist types are beginning to understand the importance of ordinary citizens having firearms to defend themselves from the government, a right guaranteed by the Second Amendment.

On May 12, Dave Strano and three other members of Kansas Mutual Aid, an anarcho-communist organization based in Lawrence, traveled to Greensburg to find out what was happening on the ground and try to assist with relief efforts.

They learned that a week after the tornado, FEMA finally began allowing relief workers into the area, long after they had disarmed everyone in the city they could, bungled initial relief efforts, and established a virtually complete police state.

We intended to analyze the situation and assess how our organization could help from Lawrence. If long term physical aid was needed from us, we had to make contacts within the local populace that could offer a place to set up a base camp. We also intended to find out what happened to the prisoners in the county jail during and after the storm, and what the current procedure for those being arrested was. In a highly militarized city, the police and military were the biggest threat to personal safety. . . .

After a short while, we met with several people evacuating belongings from their home. They told us that FEMA had been there for a week, and that all FEMA could offer them was a packet of information. The packet, however, had to be mailed to the recipients, and they had no mailing address! Their entire house had been destroyed. Their mailbox was probably in the next county. . . .

FEMA’s mission was to safeguard the property of businesses in the area and offer “low interest” loans to property owners affected. The National Guard was on hand along with the local police, to act as the enforcement mechanism for FEMA, while occasionally hauling debris and garbage out of the city. . . .

In the immediate recovery after the storm, FEMA and local police not only worked to find survivors and the dead, but also any firearms in the city. As you pass by houses in Greensburg, you notice that some are spraypainted with how many weapons were recovered from the home. This is central Kansas, a region with extremely high legal gun ownership. Of the over 350 firearms confiscated by police immediately after the storm, only a third have been returned to their owners. FEMA and the police have systematically disarmed the local population, leaving the firepower squarely in control of the state. — Dave Strano, Kansas Mutual Aid

FEMA’s top priority going in was clear. It was not to help people, but to establish control and cow the population. These, of course, are the same things they did during Hurricane Katrina, with much more disastrous results.

It’s time to get rid of FEMA, and along with it, any federal government responsibility for disaster response. Ordinary people and businesses, acting on their own and collaborating, have already proved they can respond to a disaster much more effectively than government force ever could.

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05 ... away-help/

[WaTcHeR]

After tornado, FEMA disarms town, turns away help

On Friday, May 4, an F5 tornado wiped the town of Greensburg, Kan., almost entirely off the map. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, along with the National Guard and local police from all over Kansas, then systematically kept out relief workers while they went house to house disarming the residents.

One bit of good news, though, is that some left-leaning anarchist types are beginning to understand the importance of ordinary citizens having firearms to defend themselves from the government, a right guaranteed by the Second Amendment.

On May 12, Dave Strano and three other members of Kansas Mutual Aid, an anarcho-communist organization based in Lawrence, traveled to Greensburg to find out what was happening on the ground and try to assist with relief efforts.

They learned that a week after the tornado, FEMA finally began allowing relief workers into the area, long after they had disarmed everyone in the city they could, bungled initial relief efforts, and established a virtually complete police state.

We intended to analyze the situation and assess how our organization could help from Lawrence. If long term physical aid was needed from us, we had to make contacts within the local populace that could offer a place to set up a base camp. We also intended to find out what happened to the prisoners in the county jail during and after the storm, and what the current procedure for those being arrested was. In a highly militarized city, the police and military were the biggest threat to personal safety. . . .

After a short while, we met with several people evacuating belongings from their home. They told us that FEMA had been there for a week, and that all FEMA could offer them was a packet of information. The packet, however, had to be mailed to the recipients, and they had no mailing address! Their entire house had been destroyed. Their mailbox was probably in the next county. . . .

FEMA’s mission was to safeguard the property of businesses in the area and offer “low interest” loans to property owners affected. The National Guard was on hand along with the local police, to act as the enforcement mechanism for FEMA, while occasionally hauling debris and garbage out of the city. . . .

In the immediate recovery after the storm, FEMA and local police not only worked to find survivors and the dead, but also any firearms in the city. As you pass by houses in Greensburg, you notice that some are spraypainted with how many weapons were recovered from the home. This is central Kansas, a region with extremely high legal gun ownership. Of the over 350 firearms confiscated by police immediately after the storm, only a third have been returned to their owners. FEMA and the police have systematically disarmed the local population, leaving the firepower squarely in control of the state. — Dave Strano, Kansas Mutual Aid

FEMA’s top priority going in was clear. It was not to help people, but to establish control and cow the population. These, of course, are the same things they did during Hurricane Katrina, with much more disastrous results.

It’s time to get rid of FEMA, and along with it, any federal government responsibility for disaster response. Ordinary people and businesses, acting on their own and collaborating, have already proved they can respond to a disaster much more effectively than government force ever could.

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05 ... away-help/

I don't care if it's a cop, FEMA or Bubba from down the road who's in the National Guard. Anyone who goes against the constitution and put's a family at risk by confiscating their firearms, should be shot and killed on site!

[WaTcHeR]

Now we have the FED's closing down gun stores in Louisiana.

http://policecrimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=887&sid=637a529dc0324a0f2f42d5c8ecc59dad

[spd49]

Watcher,

You are correct when you say that the police can't be everywhere and protect everyone 24 hrs a day. That is a simple reality. When I say that I protect people by arresting dangerous felons, I'm thinking of the future victims. I could not help the poor, innocent child that was molested if I did not know it was going on. Once I do know that it is going on, I can conduct a professional and competent investigation that will lead to the arrest and incarceration of the molester. If the monster is in prison then he won't be molesting the victim anymore. He also won't be molesting the next victim that he planned to molest. If a 7/11 gets robbed and I arrest the guy who does it am I not protecting the Clerk of the Store 24 that was going to get robbed later?

It seems to me that your vision of police work is colored by T.V. rather than reality. The thought that patrol officers simply show up at crime scenes, rope them off and turn everything over to detectives is right out of NYPD Blue. The vast majority of arrests are made by patrol officers within minutes of the crime. EXAMPLE-A woman in the city next to mine was the victim of an attempted armed robbery. The bad guy actually took a shot at her when she ran from him. She called the police and gave a detailed description of the crook. Two minutes later a patrol Sergeant saw the bad guy and chased him down with the help of other cops. The idiot still had the gun on him. The victim id him as the robber. A dangerous felon is in custody due to an alert, courageous victim who wasn't afraid to id her attacker, and gutsy police officers who captured an armed man who had already shot at somebody. If a crime is going to be solved and an arrest made, chances are it is the slob in the blue uniform that does it.

When I made the comment about police work being dangerous, I was not asking for anybody's thanks or saying that I did not know the risks before I entered the profession. I was simply stating that while other professions may have a higher mortality rate, police officers are more often the victims of violent assault than these other jobs.

spd49

[spd49]

Ancap,

I live and work in Massachusetts. We do not have different classes of misdemeanors. Assault and Battery (actual charge on a domestic)- Massachusetts General Law 265 13A-punishable by not more than 2 1/2 years in the House of Correction (our county jail) and a fine of $1000. Assault and Battery on a Public Official (this includes police officers)-Massachusetts General Law 265 13D-punishable by a minimum of 90 days and not more than 2 1/2 years in the House of Correction and a fine of $500-$5000. Resisting Arrest-Massachusetts General Law 268 32B-punishable by not more than 2 1/2 yrs in the House of Correction and a fine of no more than $500.

spd49

[Ancap]

Ancap,

I live and work in Massachusetts. We do not have different classes of misdemeanors. Assault and Battery (actual charge on a domestic)- Massachusetts General Law 265 13A-punishable by not more than 2 1/2 years in the House of Correction (our county jail) and a fine of $1000. Assault and Battery on a Public Official (this includes police officers)-Massachusetts General Law 265 13D-punishable by a minimum of 90 days and not more than 2 1/2 years in the House of Correction and a fine of $500-$5000. Resisting Arrest-Massachusetts General Law 268 32B-punishable by not more than 2 1/2 yrs in the House of Correction and a fine of no more than $500.

spd49

Spd, I have to ask, why are the penalties more severe for the person who assaults an agent of the state, but not for the common citizen?

I ask to point this out:

1. Punishable by a minimum of 90 days of incarceration. I would venture to guess that if found guilty, 90 days is the mimimum mandatory sentence?

2. A $500-$5000 monetary penalty as compared to the $1000 maximum monetary penalty for the helpless victim of domestic assault and the $500 monetary penalty for resisting arrest.

[Ancap]

Spd, I'm going to break this down into several parcels.

You are correct when you say that the police can't be everywhere and protect everyone 24 hrs a day. That is a simple reality.

So why does the state feel the need to restrict, limit or prohibit how one defends themselves?

When I say that I protect people by arresting dangerous felons, I'm thinking of the future victims. I could not help the poor, innocent child that was molested if I did not know it was going on. Once I do know that it is going on, I can conduct a professional and competent investigation that will lead to the arrest and incarceration of the molester.

You conveniently excuse the empty promise of protection that the state implies via the laws it passes. You can feel sad, bad, remorse, guilt, sympathy, empathy or what ever emotion you do feel for the victims but the simple fact of the matter is the law was put in place to protect the person before that person became a victim.

Couple of things about laws. Laws do no protect people. The creation of more laws only leads to more crimes. The latter could very well explain the burgeoning prison population.

If the monster is in prison then he won't be molesting the victim anymore. He also won't be molesting the next victim that he planned to molest. If a 7/11 gets robbed and I arrest the guy who does it am I not protecting the Clerk of the Store 24 that was going to get robbed later?

This is like saying all fetus's should be aborted so as to prevent the next child molester or burglar. It's complete supposition.

It seems to me that your vision of police work is colored by T.V. rather than reality. The thought that patrol officers simply show up at crime scenes, rope them off and turn everything over to detectives is right out of NYPD Blue. The vast majority of arrests are made by patrol officers within minutes of the crime. EXAMPLE-A woman in the city next to mine was the victim of an attempted armed robbery. The bad guy actually took a shot at her when she ran from him. She called the police and gave a detailed description of the crook. Two minutes later a patrol Sergeant saw the bad guy and chased him down with the help of other cops. The idiot still had the gun on him. The victim id him as the robber. A dangerous felon is in custody due to an alert, courageous victim who wasn't afraid to id her attacker, and gutsy police officers who captured an armed man who had already shot at somebody. If a crime is going to be solved and an arrest made, chances are it is the slob in the blue uniform that does it.

Sure, I could go along with that if it was true (I have no reason to doubt your anecdotal evidence). From my experience, a vast majority of arrests that are perpertrated by the men in blue are performed:

A. Executing an arrest warrant, whether issued by a court or magistrate. These also include arrests on warrants granted by a judge to a detective who has investigated a crime scene and has found sufficient probable cause to seek a warrant against an identifiable suspect. These warrants aren't normally served by the detective, but are given to patrol, usually to a shift supervisor (or to the officer patrolling the zone where the person resides) who transfers it to the next shift and they are kept for between 30-90 days before being sent back to the Clerk of Courts where they are put on hold until (if/when) the suspect is identified by an officer on patrol and taken into custody or he does something stupid elsewhere and when his identity is called in, he is arrested for an outstanding warrant.

B. Misdemeanor arrests. DUI, shoplifting, disorderly conduct, trespass, etc, etc, et. al.

In the anecdote you gave above, isn't this more the anomaly as opposed to the every day norm? Even from your own postings you stated that you arrested an alleged spousal abuser and some guys for disorderly conduct. That seems more the norm in my book.

When I made the comment about police work being dangerous, I was not asking for anybody's thanks or saying that I did not know the risks before I entered the profession. I was simply stating that while other professions may have a higher mortality rate, police officers are more often the victims of violent assault than these other jobs.

In my profession we tend to call each other "mutual combatants", or "ass-kicker" and "ass-kickee".

Also, dem damn trees assault me on a daily basis.

[spd49]

Ancap,

All three crimes A&B, ABPO and Resisting Arrest have very similiar penalties. The diferences are negligible. I could maybe buy your argument if ABPO was a felony while A&B was only a misdemeanor.

I don't think that the state gives any implied promise of protection by passing a law. Murder is against the law. The state makes no promise that a person will not be unlawfully killed with malice aforethought. The state does say that murder will not be tolerated and if the malefactor is identified and convicted they will be punished.

" A substantial fraction of clearances (of Part I crimes i.e. murder,rape, robbery, Aggravated Assault, Burglary, Larceny, MV Theft, Arson and Simple Assault) are produced by patrol arrests at the scene of the crime."-The Criminal Investigation Process Volume I: Summary and Implications;Greenwood and Silia. I overstated when I said "vast majority". I tend to be sensitive when the role of patrol is minimized. I'll admit that my time in the Criminal Investigation Division was short, unhappy and punctuated by personality conflicts. ( I returned to patrol at my own request) I think that the number of felony arrests made by a patrolman is highly dependent on the area he/she works. If you work a high crime area then you make a lot of felony arrests.

I think that my supposition that a violent criminal will continue to commit crimes until incarcerated is born up by both personal experience and social science. (FYI-check out Professor Lonnie Athens' "Violentization Theory")

spd49

[Ancap]

No Spd, the differences aren't negligible.

In the case of Assault and Battery there MAY be a fine of up to $1000 and there MAY be jail time of up to 2 1/2 years. But it's not mandatory. A first offense may receive a fine of $100 plus court costs, no jail time and 30 months probation.

On the other hand, Assault and Battery of an Agent of the State the person SHALL receive at a minimum a $500 fine AND 90 days in jail. This is at a minimum. This is not to mention the probation that will be handed out by the judge for what is more than likely the max term of 30 months. This would be for a first offense.

So again, I ask, why are the penalties more severe for an assault and battery on an agent of the state?

" A substantial fraction of clearances (of Part I crimes i.e. murder,rape, robbery, Aggravated Assault, Burglary, Larceny, MV Theft, Arson and Simple Assault) are produced by patrol arrests at the scene of the crime."-The Criminal Investigation Process Volume I: Summary and Implications;Greenwood and Silia. I overstated when I said "vast majority". I tend to be sensitive when the role of patrol is minimized. I'll admit that my time in the Criminal Investigation Division was short, unhappy and punctuated by personality conflicts. ( I returned to patrol at my own request) I think that the number of felony arrests made by a patrolman is highly dependent on the area he/she works. If you work a high crime area then you make a lot of felony arrests.

There is a wide margin of difference between "substantial fraction" and "vast majority". By the simple fact that you pulled this above quote out of The Criminal Investigative Process Volume I, you were not overstating but being dishonest as you had knowledge of the information you were putting forth as fact.
I'll let it slide this time.

I think that my supposition that a violent criminal will continue to commit crimes until incarcerated is born up by both personal experience and social science. (FYI-check out Professor Lonnie Athens' "Violentization Theory")

Your statement continues to be supposition and is not an absolute that all violent criminals will continue to commit crimes until they are incarcerated or quite possibly killed. This is evidenced by the fact that there are numerous former violent criminals walking the streets today.

[spd49]

Ancap,

I agree that "large fraction" and "vast majority" are different. I simply remembered the information incorrectly and REVIEWED the study that I had previously read. I was not being intentionally deceitful, I simply made a mistake. I think my point was still valid. Patrol Officers do a lot more than rope off crime scenes. In cases of Part I crimes where arrests are made, patrol officers responding to the scene make a significant (fair to say?) percentage of the arrests. Got to go, will discuss the rest of your reply later.

spd49

[WaTcHeR]

After tornado, FEMA disarms town, turns away help

On Friday, May 4, an F5 tornado wiped the town of Greensburg, Kan., almost entirely off the map. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, along with the National Guard and local police from all over Kansas, then systematically kept out relief workers while they went house to house disarming the residents.

One bit of good news, though, is that some left-leaning anarchist types are beginning to understand the importance of ordinary citizens having firearms to defend themselves from the government, a right guaranteed by the Second Amendment.

On May 12, Dave Strano and three other members of Kansas Mutual Aid, an anarcho-communist organization based in Lawrence, traveled to Greensburg to find out what was happening on the ground and try to assist with relief efforts.

They learned that a week after the tornado, FEMA finally began allowing relief workers into the area, long after they had disarmed everyone in the city they could, bungled initial relief efforts, and established a virtually complete police state.

We intended to analyze the situation and assess how our organization could help from Lawrence. If long term physical aid was needed from us, we had to make contacts within the local populace that could offer a place to set up a base camp. We also intended to find out what happened to the prisoners in the county jail during and after the storm, and what the current procedure for those being arrested was. In a highly militarized city, the police and military were the biggest threat to personal safety. . . .

After a short while, we met with several people evacuating belongings from their home. They told us that FEMA had been there for a week, and that all FEMA could offer them was a packet of information. The packet, however, had to be mailed to the recipients, and they had no mailing address! Their entire house had been destroyed. Their mailbox was probably in the next county. . . .

FEMA’s mission was to safeguard the property of businesses in the area and offer “low interest” loans to property owners affected. The National Guard was on hand along with the local police, to act as the enforcement mechanism for FEMA, while occasionally hauling debris and garbage out of the city. . . .

In the immediate recovery after the storm, FEMA and local police not only worked to find survivors and the dead, but also any firearms in the city. As you pass by houses in Greensburg, you notice that some are spraypainted with how many weapons were recovered from the home. This is central Kansas, a region with extremely high legal gun ownership. Of the over 350 firearms confiscated by police immediately after the storm, only a third have been returned to their owners. FEMA and the police have systematically disarmed the local population, leaving the firepower squarely in control of the state. — Dave Strano, Kansas Mutual Aid

FEMA’s top priority going in was clear. It was not to help people, but to establish control and cow the population. These, of course, are the same things they did during Hurricane Katrina, with much more disastrous results.

It’s time to get rid of FEMA, and along with it, any federal government responsibility for disaster response. Ordinary people and businesses, acting on their own and collaborating, have already proved they can respond to a disaster much more effectively than government force ever could.

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05 ... away-help/

On Saturday May 19, five members and volunteers affiliated with Kansas
Mutual Aid, a Lawrence based class struggle anarchist collective, made the
trek back to Greensburg to again help in relief efforts in the tornado
ravaged city. A week earlier, four KMA members had traveled to Greensburg
on a fact finding mission to assess the situation there. What KMA members
found was a militarized, entirely destroyed city where relief efforts were
moving tragically slow.

Today's trip back to Greensburg by KMA members and volunteers was intended
to solidify the bonds we had created in the first trip, and establish a
base of operations for future relief efforts. KMA spent the morning
working on a house with members of AmeriCorps, and then proceeded to meet
with contacts with the Mennonite Disaster Services.

We then headed out of town to a church just outside of city limits that we
were told would be a place we could probably set up a base camp for our
work. The church had been converted into a fire station by the state, so
we continued down the road and met a farmer who was willing to work with
us and let us use his land.

Soon after meeting the farmer, we were approached by officers with the
Dickinson County Sheriff's Department. After a brief exchange, the
officers left, and we were told to report to the Kiowa County Emergency
Response Command Post to receive official permission to set up our base of
operations. We were notified that if we did not do so, we would risk
having our operation ceased by the state.

Two of our delegation went to the Command Post, while the other three of
us went to the County Courthouse to pick up some water and provisions being
offered by the Red Cross. While we were picking up water and food, I was
approached by an Olathe Police Officer named Ty Moeder who knew my face
and identity. I was ordered to take my hands out of my pockets and follow
the officer to a side street "to avoid making a scene".

I and the other people with me followed the officer, and were repeatedly
ordered to keep our hands out of our pockets, where they could be seen by
the officer. Soon more officers approached, as well as at least one member
of the Kansas Bureau of Investigation, and some people from FEMA.
Surrounded by agents of the state, we were ordered to produce our
identification.

When I asked the police why we were being detained, Officer Moeder
responded "We need to check to see if you are affiliated with the
anarchists." At this moment, our remaining two comrades approached to see
what was happening. They were detained as well, and made to produce their
identification.

Officer Moeder asked how we had gotten in to the city. "We drove in,"
someone replied.

"They weren't supposed to let you in at the road block," responded Moeder,
seemingly frustrated and perplexed by that answer.

"They even gave us a day pass to drive in and out," we shot back.

A waiting game ensued for the next several minutes, with more officers
approaching, now numbering almost fifteen. A Lawrence police officer
approached, and was ordered to take photos of the car we had driven that
was parked down the street. Officer McNemee from the Lawrence Police
Department took extensive photos of the car, even of the inside contents
of the vehicle.

Officer Moeder ordered me to step away from the rest of the relief workers
and speak with him. "You're being ordered to leave and not return. This is
not negotiable, not appealable. You can't change it. If you return you'll
be arrested on site. And believe me, you don't want to push that right
now. This system is pretty messed up, and you wouldn't be issued bail.
You'd disappear in the system."

I asked repeatedly what we had done and why we were being ordered to leave
the city. "You're part of a dangerous anarchist group that will only drain
our security resources," he responded. "We've been monitoring your website
and e-mails, we know what kind of agenda you have."

"So this is about our political beliefs?" I asked.

"No," he responded. "This is about you being federal security threats.
Kansas Mutual Aid is not welcome in this city, end of story. I know you
are going through legitimate means to work in the city, and you're story
seems picture perfect, but we know who you are, and you're not allowed
here."

We were ordered back into our car and escorted out of the city by several
police vehicles with their lights flashing, and left just outside the
city.

We returned to Lawrence just moments ago, unhindered in our resolve to
provide support to the people in the disaster area. We will continue to
work in whatever capacity we can in the areas around the city that we may
still be allowed into, and provide support to those entering the city.

The area is a police state, to be certain. Police and Law Enforcement from
across Kansas and the country are making the rules about everything.
Relief workers were banned from Greensburg today because of their
political beliefs and work against oppression and tyrannical state
control.

A longer, more in depth update with an announcement for future action will
come soon. Please spread this story far and wide.

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.p ... ensburg519

[Ancap]

Went to the KMA site, http://alliedresistance.org/kma/ and there a few things I would like to address. I feel this group has more of a socialist philosophy as opposed to an anarchist philosophy. To quote from their home page:

1. We advocate the right of all people and peoples to community and self-determination.
All people must be free to follow their own customs, cultures, and community, and to provide for the needs of those communities without the needless interference of governmental authority.
It is the right of all people to determine the course of their own lives and to—when necessary, defend that right by any means they deem justified.

I can agree with this.

2. We advocate the right of all people to receive proper shelter, nutrition, and education.
All people have the right to a place to live, food to eat, and to receive accurate and in-depth education. If an individual cannot provide for these needs, then it is the duty of society to provide them. Conversely, if society deprives any individual of these basic human rights, then that individual has the right to fulfill their needs by any means necessary.

It is not my duty to provide for another person in which I do not assume responsibility. I have a right, articulated, defined and defended by me to receive proper shelter, nutrition and education as long as the means and methods I use to achieve these goals do not infringe upon the rights of anybody else. The last sentence in their paragraph implies that thievery, robbery, murder and other acts of initiated aggression are acceptable to achieve one's goals.

3. We advocate worker’s empowerment.
Too many people spend their lives toiling away in dead end jobs that make other people rich, while they, themselves, barely scrape together enough money to survive.
Working people have the right to organize for better working conditions, better pay and eventual control of the workplace so that all people may receive the fruits of their labor instead of working for the profit of others.

The only way to achieve this utopion fallacy is to do away with government. Hey, I'm all for that. But on the flipside, if they were to do away with the state, they would create their own state to enforce this belief through the threat of force.

As it stands, I have a job and am self-employed. When I bid for a contract, I state the terms under which I will work and the monetary pay-out I will receive from the contractee agreed upon for services rendered.

If I hire another person to perform the work with me, they are also an independent contractor in those regards. That person will have agreed upon a pre-determined rate to compensate for his work and is entitled to nothing else. He is not entitled to my chainsaw. He is not entitled to my boom truck, he is not entitled to my ropes. He has agreed to mix his labor with mine for an agreed upon wage. That is the extent of his involvement. My property does not belong to him. My property I bought and paid for and he is not the owner of said property. When he comes to work for me, he is receiving the fruits of his labor through a monetary wage. If he feels he is not being paid enough or deserves a percentage of my property, then he may assume the loans that I have taken out to acquire my property and I will not only have him assume the loans, but recompense me the remaining value of my property. He does have the option of leaving and starting his own company to compete against mine. That is a true free market. Not one in which the founding owner of the company will be forced to give up unfair portions of his monies and properties to appease the idle, lazy and unimaginative.

Sure, you have the right to organize and I as the owner have the right to terminate your employment and hire people who are willing to work for the wage that I am willing to pay. When you work for me, you have placed a value upon your labor when you accept the job for the wage offered. If you feel that the pay is substandard, you have the option of leaving.

The KMA's statement here is entirely socialist and not in the least anarchist.

4. We advocate a society free of discrimination in all its forms.
Regardless of class, race, gender, sexual preference, sexual identity, religion, disability, nationality, or species that all living beings are entitled to a life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Read this carefully folks, then refer to the first statement given by the KMA. The KMA advocates a society free of discrimination in all it's forms to include "species". Does this make the KMA a collection of animal rights activists? I think so by this statement alone. When I ask you to refer to first statement, notice how they state all people have the right to self-determination. That is, unless you're a hunter or trapper. What will the KMA do when their utopian society runs upon a trapper running his trapline? Shoot him in defense of the animals?

This above statement is so ridiculous that it's almost funny. In a true anarchist society, there could very well be a community that only allows blacks or whites or asians or what have you within their boundaries. That is self-determination, discrimination and the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. I support that. But on the flipside, as a free market advocate, I am not required to conduct business with such a community. This is something the KMA does not get. They are advocating the threat of force to achieve their goals.

5. We advocate restorative justice.
Police and prisons function to maintain a society based on class and racial inequalities. Prison populations are constantly growing and the prison industry grows rich on cheap labor while creating a class of people who—having spent much of their lives behind bars, are forced to learn crime as a way of life.
It is time to create a community-based system that relies on rehabilitation and reconciliation between victims, offenders, and the larger community instead of a government imposed system of mass incarceration and criminalization.

I don't see much of a problem with this statement, except that I feel that some people do not need to be incarcerated, rehabilitated or reconciled. As an example, drug dealing is a capitalist enterprise. As long as the dealer doesn't aggress against anybody or their property whether through force or deceit, I have no problem with his business.

6. We advocate the creation of a free and borderless society.
National borders unnecessarily segregate societies into antagonistic regions while governments regularly manipulate the lives of everyday citizens for the benefit of a country’s rich and powerful.
Only by creating a society without borders or governments can we hope to build the sort of community, freedom, and justice that will allow all people to prosper and thrive.

This is laughable. They advocate a free and borderless society but one based upon their above rules. In other words, another state.

7. We advocate the demilitarization and decolonization of society.
The United States has its vast military force spread around the globe, while, here at home, our streets are flooded with the armies of the police.
We must create a society free of the mechanisms of war where indigenous people again have control over their ancestral lands and all people have the luxury of passing their days in peace.

Are you willing to give up your lands and house when the Kiowa come knocking on your door demanding their rightful anscetral lands? I do agree that the police need to go as the people are capable of self-government. I also agree that the military needs to be brought home and disbanded.

On the flipside, when the military is disbanded and the people are living their days in peace, there is another nation and government planning the invasion of this country to instill their doctrine of coercion upon you. Think on that.

8. We advocate environmental protection.
The world is our home. Once it ceases to be habitable, we cease to exist.
It is our duty to conserve, protect, and restore all remaining natural habitats while finding and using more environmentally sustainable methods of manufacturing, energy production, and waste disposal.

I disagree as it completely violates the very first statement put forth by the KMA. I like to think of the world as my prostitute and I'm the pimp.